Home. Accessibility issues arise more frequently due to excessive coding ok so this can be attributed to bad coding but its such a common issue that it has to be taken into account. It doesnt lead to the need for more tags and it doesnt require workarounds. Which is why Im not one to generally make that argument. And if I gave offense at all as well I also apologize. Advantages of CSS: Disadvantages of CSS: Helps in making creative web pages by making them simple to use. Fair points and thanks for making this an intelligent conversation. To me it seems so obvious that using divs over tables is the better approach that I have a hard time understanding how someone would argue otherwise. Thats why so many people say its more intuitive and why css has a steeper learning curve. It amazes me that some folks still use tables for layout in this day and age. Sometimes they write for things called tabloids, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. And I never use some software package to do it for me unless I wrote that package myself. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. It helps us to determine the changes within the position of web elements who are there on the page. Now lets get to some of the myths on both sides that keep this debate going. Unless you offer specifics Im going to assume youre just name calling, because you were unhappy with my previous comment. CSS works differently on different browsers. Learning CSS/div coding seems a daunting task because they dont really know the code in the first place. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. Dont worry Im not taking your questions as a need to defend css. After making the changes we need to confirm the compatibility if they appear. Tables can be part of your layout, but they shouldnt make up the entire layout. Learning to write CSS layouts bucket be tricky, especially if you are usual with using tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Im really struggling with whether to learn and use CSS for layout. They use less code. The look of an HTML table can be greatly improved with CSS: To specify table borders in CSS, use the border property. How to override the CSS properties of a class using another CSS class ? I thought my question BTW why css layout over table layout' was clear from the context but apparently not. To do this, add the following CSS to your style.css file: A table-layout value of fixed is generally a good idea to set on your table, as it makes the table behave a bit more predictably by default. Its often used as simple data storage, NoSQL. The phone number and search can either be wrapped together in another div thats floated to the right or they could each be floated to the right independently. Eric Meyers books are good. It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. acknowledge that you have read and understood our, Data Structure & Algorithm Classes (Live), Data Structures & Algorithms in JavaScript, Data Structure & Algorithm-Self Paced(C++/JAVA), Full Stack Development with React & Node JS(Live), Android App Development with Kotlin(Live), Python Backend Development with Django(Live), DevOps Engineering - Planning to Production, GATE CS Original Papers and Official Keys, ISRO CS Original Papers and Official Keys, ISRO CS Syllabus for Scientist/Engineer Exam, Interview Preparation For Software Developers. Tables are simply not faster to create. Justin, apparently I named this post well, since the debate never seems to die. WebDisadvantages of tables. I dont think using css for a layout means the page automatically ranks better. Its really about 5 -10 minutes work to set up. I find it hard to believe that anyone who honestly knows how to develop a site well with both tables and divs would ever choose to use tables. Its not going to bother me at all. They seem to work quite well for many people who arent you. Many people are able to build sites using css as a layout and getting them to work cross-browser including IE without any difficulty. Im not suggesting you should never use an html table anywhere. I just said they were faster, which you proved. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. I wrote it to answer the question. You said I made overhyped performance claims, which I didnt. Thats why theres more than one method in the post. After a week of wandering around the interwebs I still cant figure out, nor have I found any tutorials, on how to create a header like the one I have, one where there are three colums where the middle expands to fit a wider browser. When I do use tables for layout, its often a 1 row table with 2 columns, and its because there were no semantically correct tags that use the correct rendering that would work for IE6. If you want your page to behave like a table or part of it, use a table. Ive heard the argument that reduced code helps with SEO, with people saying that too much code makes it harder for Google to parse. The language allows web developers to regulate various style elements and functionalities, like layout, color, fonts, and therefore the formatting and display of HTML documents. Replacing one with the other will lead to unnecessary complication. The load time though, is now reason enough to recommend css over tables for seo. There is nothing wrong using CSS and Tables. Im glad your process works for you, but that doesnt change my opinion. People can build sites without using a table-based layout now and still do. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness.. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. Itll be interesting to see how it develops and also what kind of browser support it gets. You can create the same shape in a number of ways. By Times have changed. 3)Stop using Dreamweaver to code websites for Gods sake.Give .NET websites (Aspx) a try,you will be amazed.And,for what you want to be shown in all,you just do a master page.Plus,divs are NOT cross-resolution.You have to add fixed dimensions everywhere,and positions screw up in mobile resolutions. If you need a quick salary estimator, that comes out to be about $48.18 per hour. On one hand you say you can create 3 columns of equal heights with divs, but in your blog post, you mentioned that people shouldnt try to make tables with divs. I dont even have a copy of IE to work with. Let me start by letting you know I fall on the css side of things. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! I didnt create the overall frame to the conversation. Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. The reason people are still defending table based layouts is because tables are the correct SHAPE for most client specifications, not independent blocks floated to the left, or independent blocks with absolute positioning or independent blocks using any other trick to make them seem like they cooperate. Its pretty common to do when first learning css. Funny. Columns of equal height? Thanks Kevin. Much of the time I dont have to write anything specific for IE. Web designers needs to use few lines of programming for every page improving site speed. When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. There are some new things on the way with css3 too that will make working with divs/css even easier and more flexible. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. Notepad is for pros. To me, its the most pleasing layout shape. As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. That you had a problems on a site you were developing doesnt mean my tutorials arent accurate. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. I would have to say,use divs and tables for what they are designed for. Tables are not effective by themselves anymore I agree, it takes a lot of time updating thing manually, so CSS is a BIG help. Oddly as grids become more and more in use theyre sometimes developed in a way that attempts to recreate a table using css. Im not disagreeing with anything you say. I use it and love it. Im amazed that in 2013 people are still defending table-based layouts, but whatever. The posts arent just about the code, but I do provide the basic html and css I use now for a 3 column layout. The web developers need to test for compatibility, running the program across multiple browsers. Its is also much quicker to use tables, and hey, yeah, once in a while it is nice to be able to glance at your code in a wysywig and actually see what it looks like. Web designers who take the time to learn css dont have the same problems youre seeing. Ive been a designer for over 20 years and been using tables for layout for 13 years. When you ask about table type content with css do you mean using css to show tabular data or are you asking more about how to style tables? Youre welcome to send me an email of fill out the contact form and we can talk. It will work equally as well, and only take seconds to accomplish. WYSIWYG editors seem a lot better to me today than they were 10 years ago. Maybe its because I learned with tables when I was getting started but Divs are complicated and they absolutely do require more code most of the time when you consider practically each object needs to be assigned an ID and go along with a class . Youll have more control over how your page displays with divs that can aid in how a screenreader sees your content, but again you can create equally accessible pages using either approach. Now, select the Table tab > click the Options button > uncheck the Automatically Resize to Fit Contents check box. OK,this is total madness.I have 3 reasons,ready reasons,as to why tables are better than divs.And more,but not on the top of my head. Laying information out this way is simply more intuitive than floating divs, not from a web standards perspective, but from a kid puts shapes in the holes perspective. I believe many developers only read do not use tables, missing the later half of the sentence for layouts. If you find yourself needing hacks then most likely you havent thought out your structure all that well. search engines are more friendly. Hi Jennifer. Ive seen these performance claims for div over table all over the web, and many of them assert much faster, rather then simply faster. As for the I dont need any extra code to get stuff to work for ie when using divs and css, really is that so? Tables and grids are not the same thing in web development. The problems I run into are on updates: adding a few lines here, and changing the text there. With Googles latest algorithm update (Caffeine) emphasising page load times as a SE ranking factor it is now more important than ever from an SEO stand point to reduce the amount of code on a webpage. Styles application means easy Table of Contents generation. This would be more about inline css or using html attributes like the font tag vs a separate stylesheet. Again though you may notice in the post I dont use seo as a reason to use css. This is rubbish. There are a few downsides while using CSS. The secret is you have to use < and > for the angle brackets or it gets interpreted as actual code. Of course that depends on the developer more than the code itself. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! Tables have proven themselves and Im going old school. Different browsers rendered the design differently. Learn more about Teams Im amazed this conversation still exists yet it seems every few weeks I see another post proclaiming we should all go back to using tables for site layout. Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. If you read the post youll see I never once said you couldnt use tables. The form on the bottom left of the homepage is an html feedback form through http://www.freedback.com. It doesnt mean youll make the error, but more chances exist. However. Ive done that for people before. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. The advantages with using divs are essentially counter to the problems with tables described above. Personally, if I could instantly convert a design into HTML, Id do it. True. The resulting code runs issue free cross browser. As we add more to the pages design the table complexity continues to increase compared to divs. CSS doesnt restrict anything. If you know what youre doing you might need a few lines of css total to fix IE bugs. I promise Im not laughing. Use table-layout: fixed to create a Ive linked to this article in a post as part of a project Im doing on web design styles. More code leads to more potential for errors. I guess Ive never been convinced of the seo benefits. As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. Your 2-column layout example could easily be accomplished with a .Net master page. In my scenario, I flip the first and second td elements in a .Net master page. If there is a specific tutorial that isnt working for you just let me know which one and Ill be happy to take a look to see if there are any errors. Heavy image use and Flash still seem to be the biggest factors in speed. I coded up 3 different versions of the same page (divs, tables, tables with table-layout:fixed), and then ran some benchmarks on performance and file sizes. Tables also have distinct dis advantages on mobile devices: You can only squeeze in a small number of columns before the table width causes horizontal scrolling on smaller screens. bootstrap requires a container, row, and something equal to a td but I cant recall which. (i know theres gotta be one but thats almost another argument for CSS over tables multiple ways you can go about it even). Thats not an apples to apples comparison. Specifically, it would take more than one div to create a row cell structure so when you need to display data in that structure its actually exactly the same amount of html whether you use a table or nested divs. However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. Im sure there are a few out there already, but one more wont hurt. Years ago it moved away from tables and towards divs and css for layout. Items misaligned, trouble getting the position of floated elements, absurd hacks, you name it. Click OK twice to exit the Table Properties dialog box. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. I would never develop the site that way, but I know there are people who can. Out of curiosity can you offer an advantage of table-based layout over divs and css? I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. Who cares, as long as it looks good on all the browsers and search engines are picking it up. In theory, CSS is the answer, the problem is that the way browsers deal with SOME of it is not only not standardized, but can actually have the exact opposite result for example position: absolute can cause a column to move to the left in one browser and cause it to move down in another, and cause it to move up in yet another. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? Some of these advantages are: 1. I thought the debate was or should have been dead a few years ago. Ive been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. I certainly havent seen anything to support the validity of these remarks. If you send me a link Ill be happy to take a look. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. It is easy to customize a web page as it can be done by merely altering a modular file. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. You are here: Learning to layout an entire site with divs and css is the hardest part, but I promise itll be worth it. What makes tables harder is that its too easy to get lost in the structure and edit the wrong cell. Ill be happy to take a look container, row, and only take to. 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