Check out Matt 25:46. Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Purchasers of the Photo Companion to the Bible and the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands are granted liberal usage rights for the images for personal and educational purposes. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. Fears becalmed. This is talking about a place where the worms do not die, (?the flesh is never fully consumed) and the fire is not quenched. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. . That part of the verse could be left off and the last part of the verse would be sufficient to finish answering why the rich man's request could not be granted. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. Indeed, there is no reason to search further for ancient burning piles of discarded newspapers, product packaging, and junk mail. All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. Thats it. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside.]. And why should it? That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. Are you serious? As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). activies, not statements of faith). Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. Gehenna, garbage dump or a place of eternal punishment?/ Gordon Franz., Gordon Franz. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, his hearers would think of the valley of rotting, worm-infested garbage, where the fire always burned, smoke always lingered, and if the wind blew just right, a smell that sickened the sense wafted in the air. (pp. The objection that "eternal punishment" and "eternal life" are used in parallel in Matthew 25:46, and therefore aionian must means eternal is based on a false presumption that the "aionian life" which is spoken of would have to come to an end at the same time that the "aionian" punishment does. The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. One of the strange things about all of the talk about whether punishment is eternal or not is the fact that if the Lord had wanted to communicate the idea that punishment would be eternal, there are several ways to do this in Greek and make it crystal clear. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. "Six seminaries" did not exist. He wrote: In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and burned their sons and their daughters in the fire. It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. The "captivity". There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. and rules called canons. ge) . [What has that got to do with it. ), the valley was later transformed into a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. Ezekiel doesn't utter any either and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". Does that make the Bible false? If you don't like it, go and take something else but don't put your thoughts into Christ's mouth. People also ignore the context of what Jesus is talking about. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). The flies laid eggs on the surface of the dump. Click the card to flip Everything! 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. 'Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called 'Gehenna.'' He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. At the same time, I hope you will believe me that the vast majority of Christians you believe in things like eternal salvation and damnation are not motivated by any joy in seeing other people suffer but by respect for Christ's teaching, Christ's judgement and for other people's freedom of choice. The explanation for the fire of Gehenna lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.. I've used this illustration many times. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another. 2:8 for additional contextual support. One is kolasin, the other timoria. If that seems unfair in your eyes, so be it . Gehenna was not a dump outside Jerusalem. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. There is no way shape or form that you can make Jude utter universalist theology. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. If ALL will be made alive than any passage referring to future punishment MUST be viewed in light of that fact. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! There was not a trash pile perpetually burning. Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah undergo vengeance in "eternal fire", and Ezekiel says that Sodom and her daughters will one day be restored to their former estate. "Gehenna" was a very concrete location in Jesus' time. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. Anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. So just imagine the hundreds of thousands of squirmy, wormy maggots living there, eating the rotting refuse. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. The BiblePlaces Blog provides updates and analysis of the latest in biblical archaeology, history, and geography. Romans 5:18-21 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. (66:5) If these bodies in Gehenna are meant to typify being in "hell" why would anyone want to go look at them? This passage appears to me about the situation immediately after God's victory, so it is surely not placed during a time when the New Jerusalem has already been established for a long time. It is a widespread misconception by twisting around this or that word in the bible, you suddenly can change the content of the Christian faith. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Gehenna was not a perpetually burning trash dump." . Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. The second results in being in danger of the council, and the third results in danger of the fire of Gehenna. "With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimchi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse . But I doubt that it was "never condemned", it certainly was in Origen's case. I also find it hard to be confident in any council since they often allow someone to have a leading role who would be declared a heretic a short time later, like the case of Marcellus you brought up.There seemed to be a lot of see-sawing going on. This is getting silly! In Biblical times, this place was occupied by Western Semitic pagans people who worshiped deities different from YHWH, such as Molech. In any case, we will provide honest advice. It is retributive and vindictive. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. We seem to just read right past those verses. It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. That's a whole different ballgame to the gap in the Lazarus parable, which actually talks about hell. And does the father disinherit the son after the latter has conquered and toiled for him. Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. That the valley was just outside the city of Jerusalem made it an appropriate symbol for those excluded from divine blessing. The word Gehenna was the Greek transliteration of g-ben-hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom), an actual geographical site in Jerusalem named after a real person. Gehenna -- the Valley of Hinnom -- was indeed a valley outside Jerusalem. You first have to make the text fit your interpretation. His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. If it was clearly taught in scripture, why was no council convened to condemn the heresy of universal salvation as soon as it came on the scene? It was because Gehenna outside the city of Jerusalem was the place where the bodies of criminals were burned and when the . "Saint" doesn't mean infallible, you know! Theres nothing before that. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna - Dr. Michael Heiser The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna Posted by DrHeiser | Apr 7, 2011 | AAG, Afterlife / Sheol / Hades, Ancient Sites & Archaeology, NakedBible, New Testament | That's the title of this worthwhile post from Todd Bolen. OR, the age-during life with Christ could be just that, since in 1 Corinthians it talks about Christ giving up his kingdom to the Father at the end of time. He is not being literal here", "He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man.". It says it is "not quenched". The origin of the "garbage dump" theory appears to be Kimchi. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . What church are you talking about? But there isn't evidence to support this idea. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/ An article looking at Gehenna in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word. Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . You simply over-reading certain passages. But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH! Uhh no. Jude is not using Sodom and Gommorah as examples of those who WILL be punished, the "suffering of eternal fire" in that verse is in the PRESENT TENSE. So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? Outline of Biblical Usage [?] But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. Why should it end? The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. You can also spare us quasi-racist ideas like >>legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts<<, Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. Thanks for posting. I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. This is then used as an example of a future judgment. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. According to Chan and Sprinkle "The first reference we have to the Hinnom Valley, or Gehenna, as a town dump is made by a rabbi named David Kimhi in a Commentary, which was written in AD 1200." We should also note that there is no archeological evidence of Gehenna as a garbage dump. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? The place served as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish. Unless otherwise noted, the posts are written by Todd Bolen, PhD, Professor of Biblical Studies at The Masters University. Not only that, if there were any doubt, Jesus is further clarifying what was already mentioned in Daniel 12:2 eternal is an appropriate word for the English translation. (the Romans emphasized justice and were very PROUD of their legal system) I had heard sermons for 40 years, had read the bible cover to cover several times, went to bible studies, listened to countless teaching tapes, and in all that time no one, myself included, noticed any contradiction between Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:55. One question to ask about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment? valleys of the sons of Hinnom. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Still, that's no basis for any claims about how eternal does not mean eternal or how undying fire/worms suddenly mean dying-only-later fire/worms. Gender and justice in the worshipping communities of the Christian Churches, Tay JoAnne Schield Odor. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Your email address will not be published. Because the Hinnom and Kidron Valleys are located on the southeast side of Jerusalem, the prevailing winds carry the winds away from the city. The first results in being in danger of the "judgement". The repeated tradition that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump with fires that never ceased burning is in question. The Gray Waste (more fully, the Gray Wastes of Hades; also, Hades, The Three Glooms, Hope's Loss or The Nadir) is a strongly neutral evil aligned plane of existence. Matt. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources. Is. Out of six major "seminaries" in the early church, four taught universal salvation, one taught annihilation (Ephesus)and one taught eternal punishment (Rome). It was an interesting article and I am glad that you were not trying to disprove eternal punishment though at least one person wanted to think otherwise. Specifically, Bailey states: Spare us your pseudo-physics which can teach us nothing about the afterlife in the New Jerusalem. Seems a little disproportionate to me. Centuries later Gehenna had become the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. Todd, capital punishment also qualifies as eternal punishment. PDF. 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. Lambs? It might have been just as well to not press it. It is clear: Gehenna is hell, not a trash dump. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. No matter how many times people say this and it has become street truth there is no evidence that there was a town dump outside Jerusalem in the first century. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. This practice was carried out . "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator's logic, but does not accept it. Still, because it seems like a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as "hell," commentators and preachers have accepted it. Studies at the Masters University ; theory appears to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity first results danger! 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